Younus P: Hi, Laura!
Dhara Pattani: Hello!
Laura Gould: Hello! Good morning.
Laura Gould: Hi, Laura! Good morning. Good morning. Sorry. My camera’s still turning on should be there in just a second.
Amit Bhanushali: Yeah. Use video. Good morning.
Laura Gould: Alright. I don’t know why it’s being slow. I told it to use my camera, and my camera light is on, and it is a blank screen.
Laura Gould: Alright. Let’s see if we can make that work.
Laura Gould: No, alright, I’m gonna turn my camera off and try. Turn it back on again. See if that helps.
Laura Gould: No. Okay, let me let me log off and log back on and see if that if that does it
Laura Gould: alright. Alright.
Amit Bhanushali: Technical glitches are always there.
Younus P: It has to happen on Saturday, you know. So yeah, I was talking about so how we perceive systems versus how
Younus P: a person with disability would look at it.
Younus P: We can bring them up to speed, but we can make it equal, you know. So equity is a totally different ball game, you know. That’s what the Dr. Newman was focusing on. Let’s see if he gives us some time, maybe next week, and
Younus P: we can take it under. Yeah.
Younus P: yeah, nothing.
Amit Bhanushali: Sorry.
Younus P: How are things with you amit?
Amit Bhanushali: yeah, going on? Well, so I did some certifications, and yesterday I completed one. So you will see on Linkedin, I’ll publish it today.
Amit Bhanushali: Yeah. So couple of things going on.
Younus P: Well, that’s nice.
Laura Gould: Which which course did you take up? So this was the test management.
Laura Gould: No, it’s doing the same thing again. I don’t know why this is happening. I was literally on a video call like
Laura Gould: half an hour ago, and it was working fine. Let me try that. I’ll be right back.
Laura Gould: Alright. See you again. Bye.
Younus P: yeah. Madison’s.
Amit Bhanushali: Thank you.
Dhara Pattani: This happens with Webex all the time.
Amit Bhanushali: Yeah. So I was saying, that was a test manager advanced
edit that
Younus P: this is a yeah. Yes. Here they say. As to me. advanced manager.
Dhara Pattani: Congratulations. Summit. Incredible thing to do. Like, I know, like, when you are working full time studying and managing many other things, it’s difficult.
Amit Bhanushali: Yeah, that’s coping up.
Dhara Pattani: Yeah.
yeah.
Amit Bhanushali: How about you?
Amit Bhanushali: what are things going on? How is the weather there? You’re at your place
Dhara Pattani: in Kansas? Kansas is extremely hot today. It shows like high as one or 3, and with
Dhara Pattani: heat index, it’s going to go up to 115. So whether it’s really bad.
Dhara Pattani: yeah, it’s it seems that like I know, it will. Get better by next week. I don’t see any fall signs as of now, but waiting.
Dhara Pattani: So how is the winter over there like it is too cold. That is also extreme, we’ll see like, you know, snowfall about 8, 9 times in a season, and mostly in December. January.
Amit Bhanushali: So yeah, I think, we are better here. I think it’s in nineties.
Dhara Pattani: I think in the entire Midwest is facing on this heat wave and this usually it happens once in the summer. But this time it is like already, fourth time, it is happening. Yeah, it’s about.
Dhara Pattani: And there was a Canada that Canada has that fire thing. Yeah wildfire thing going on over there, too. So last month, actually, I visited Vancouver. And like, we could feel that in the air, too, like, you know, you get that
Dhara Pattani: like, you know, burning? Yeah.
Amit Bhanushali: Actually, we could see the smoke like we could see the smoke here. yeah, I have a sister in New Jersey, and like in a few times they did see those like, you know.
Dhara Pattani: orange skies like, you know, like, for a couple of days. And yeah, so like, you know, they were also getting all kind of advisories. So not to go out to breathe and like, have their masks on and all sort of things.
Amit Bhanushali: Yeah.
Amit Bhanushali: that’s funny. But
Dhara Pattani: world is changing big time. Right? Oh, yeah.
Amit Bhanushali: I think they are going to make mass compulsory again. A at a airport, I don’t know. But like we are seeing rising cases of Covid and not in Kansas, but, like, you know, a few cases got reported in our
Dhara Pattani: workplace also. So let’s see.
Dhara Pattani: yeah.
Amit Bhanushali: yeah. Hope it doesn’t come back it will, but with a different variant. And I think so now we all are vaccinated. So hopefully, the impact will not be so bad.
Amit Bhanushali: Yeah. let’s see?
Dhara Pattani: Yeah.
Younus P: a client of mine. And anyway, so long story short, they are really in Europe.
Younus P: and the best.
Younus P: Tim airport did not allow them to board because the wife tested positive.
Younus P: And I’ll go ahead.
Younus P: Yeah, she’s here. But yeah. So it’s happening again. But maybe not at that rate.
Younus P: Hi, Laura.
Younus P: okay.
Laura Gould: Hi, Laura! Hello! Good morning. Yay, I think Zoom had to update itself, and then I think we’re good
Younus P: that are windows.
Laura Gould: Yeah, rest restarted windows. And then,
Laura Gould: said Zoom was installing updates. And I’m like, Okay, I guess maybe it’s that I don’t know.
Dhara Pattani: really.
Younus P: Thank you so much, Laura Borden
Younus P: on today. We really appreciate. And we thank you for coming online to talk with us.
Laura Gould: Absolutely. Thank you.
Younus P: Yeah. So it so we have Ahmed with us. Ahmed is our partner and
Younus P: accessibility testing. And amid is basically the Qa. Manager at the new.
Younus P: the best
Younus P: Virginia University. Yeah. So he heads the entire Qa. Department
Younus P: you know, for a stop of 20,000. So he’s a big guy.
Younus P: you know. And
so shall we begin?
Younus P: Absolutely. Yeah. So we
Younus P: so thank you. But Laura once again. And thank you. Met for coming in.
Younus P: And today we’re gonna talk about accessibility, testing in our podcast. Accessibility voice.
Younus P: Laura Laura is a
Younus P: yes, tester tester and an accessibility specialist with a decades experience in making inclusive education, you know, making education inclusive. She has moved or grown in a year and experience from
Younus P: being a teacher at a Ktv Institute along and championing digital accessibility, you know, through her programming skills. So she has grown from
Younus P: teaching and learning, doing physical access between 2 digital. So she has seen the entire journey, you know, upfront
Younus P: her advocacy and commitment to accessibility is something that Jake does, and that’s where we reached out to Laura that if she would be, you know
Younus P: keen on giving us a quick
Younus P: talk about accessibility, and that’s where we are. Thank you so so much, Laura. Dara has a set of questions to ask, and she’ll share from you.
Dhara Pattani: Thank you, Eunice and Hi, Laura.
Laura Gould: Hello! I just want you to be
Dhara Pattani: at ease and feel comfortable, and we can begin.
Laura Gould: Okay, sure sounds good. Okay.
Lorna, tell us about your professional journey and experiences in the field of accessibility, testing
Laura Gould: absolutely. My name is Laura Gould. And I am
Laura Gould: My! My background has historically been an education. I’ve been a teacher for 10 years, 8 of those in special education. So, working extensively with learners, with disabilities.
Laura Gould: and in being a teacher. And specifically a special education teacher. I’ve really seen the impact of inaccessible curriculum on
Laura Gould: my students and some of the really big things that can’t have come up have been things like things being worded at levels that are
Laura Gould: really like to cognitively complex or having things that are not screen reader accessible. So, for example, images, as text is something I’ve seen a lot of in digital curriculum for sure.
Laura Gould: things that are relying too much on text. Not necessarily having
Laura Gould: information presented in multiple ways. That’s something that I’ve definitely seen a lot of in curriculum as well. And seeing the impact of
Laura Gould: this really like inaccessible curriculum on my students.
Laura Gould: It got me to looking more into the field of digital accessibility. I’m trying to remember where exactly I came across it. It might have been on Linkedin to be honest.
Laura Gould: but I started taking some some small courses. So I took an edx course called introduction to web accessibility.
Laura Gould: That I found to be really really helpful, just in like kind of framing what the fields is and what it encompasses.
Laura Gould: And I was like, oh, there’s actually a lot of overlap between.
Laura Gould: What I’m doing is a special education teacher, which is making
Laura Gould: changing and adapting curriculum so that it meets the needs of my students.
Laura Gould: and digital accessibility which is doing something very similar. But in more of a digital environment.
Laura Gould: got a lot out of that class, found it to be really helpful. And I took a Coursera series as well called introduction to accessibility, inclusive design, and that got a bit more into
Laura Gould: the details of things I remember as part of that I had to do like a mock like Microsoft word remediation, a mock like Powerpoint remediation
Laura Gould: and
Laura Gould: found that to be really interesting, really helpful. And I was like, I definitely want to learn more. And from there
Laura Gould: enrolled in the dhs, tested. Yeah. Ch, S. Trusted tester program, and that got much more into the technical side of things. Testing sample websites. Kind of learning all about all of the 5, section 508 standards. Implementing those
Laura Gould: and and room basically doing a sample remediation for for websites that were not accessible in a lot of different ways, and I found about so many ways that they can be not accessible. And recognize so many of those is things that, like either.
Laura Gould: my students found as barriers, or just like in regular everyday life, being like, Oh, okay, the color contrast on that is really bad. And so now I’m actually, I’m noticing it kind of everywhere I go.
Laura Gould: On the Internet, and I also took a
Laura Gould: so I got the the TD. Hs trusted tester certification. Pass the test in July of this year. So still very new. And I also did a cpac certification preparation course through deck university found that to be super helpful and in the process of studying for my for I cpac exam as well.
Laura Gould: And I recently began my first job as an accessibility. Tester with a company that’s testing e-learning with and training materials. It’s very new just started this month. But also just wanna make it super clear that I’m speaking on behalf of myself and not my employer.
Dhara Pattani: Thanks. Very good to know your perspective on the importance of digital accessibility. Can you also share with us how everyone can contribute to make it more inclusive?
Laura Gould: Absolutely, I think the first step to that
Laura Gould: is really awareness.
Laura Gould: or or just being knowledgeable about digital accessibility is a field, because I found that it’s something that Ju, the general public doesn’t know a whole lot about, or in kind of like going on this journey myself, which I’m still pretty new to.
Laura Gould: Kind of. It’s very easy to explain to somebody like, Oh, I’m a teacher. People know what that is. But explaining like, Oh, I work in digital accessibility. People are like, I have never heard of that before. And so I think there are pockets where it’s it’s well known about and there are also
Laura Gould: places where like it’s it’s very much not. And I taught coding classes for 3 years to students. And HTML, Css. And Javascript, and like accessibility was not something that came up like at all in teaching, in teaching that and granted this is from.
Laura Gould: you know, teaching teaching more of like the basics. But it’s, I think, accessibility is often seen as kind of like an add on versus like a a core part, part, part part, part part of the process from the beginning.
Laura Gould: And so I think just being knowledgeable about it is is the first step, because I think once you once you understand, like what it is, there’s not a lot to disagree with. It’s like, okay, we want to make sure that like
Laura Gould: websites and digital experiences and documents and and everything are accessible for for everybody, and kind of centering the the experiences of users with disabilities and oftentimes making things accessible for for
Laura Gould: disabled users is going to make it more accessible to everyone.
Laura Gould: And so once, people kind of hear and understand that, then
Laura Gould: they’re like, Okay, yes, that makes a lot of sense. But I think the first step is getting there.
Laura Gould: In terms of
Laura Gould: how everybody can contribute. I think there’s a lot of ways to to do that.
Laura Gould: And as I get more into the field of accessibility, I realize just how deep it goes. And you very much have individuals on, like the technical side of things, who are very good at kind of making those changes, or or designing with accessibility in mind from the very beginning to make sure that whatever whatever product, or whatever
Laura Gould: app, or whatever is, is accessible. And I think you’ve also got people who are more on the advocacy side of things, who are kind of spreading the word about like what accessibility is, why, it’s important.
Laura Gould: Why, ways that like might have been used in the past, or or common ways of remediation are actually not especially accessible. Sometimes you get like common fixes that are like, actually, not that actually like make things worse as opposed to making things better. And so I think people who are really out there like championing for accessibility like are doing really excellent work.
Laura Gould: And I imagine you have people who who do a mix mix of both who are doing kind of more of the the advocacy work as well as
Laura Gould: as more as some of the the technical side of things. And I think there’s very much
Laura Gould: very much room for both. I know you also get people who are kind of more on the
Laura Gould: like making sure. How do I? How do I phrase it, like universities, will have roles like this where it’s like they might not be actually doing the physical accessibility work, but they’re ensuring that all of the accommodations that need to be met are being met. Kind of doing more of
Laura Gould: almost like the the organizational piece which is also super important. So I think the more that we can
Laura Gould: kind of get people on board to know hey, what it is. And spread the word to people
Laura Gould: and also making sure that everything that’s being done is in line with with standards, and actually usable by by users, with disabilities. I think
Laura Gould: that there’s a there’s a lot of really exciting things happening there, and also a lot of room to grow
Younus P: absolutely. I think
Younus P: awareness is the first step. And if at all levels right from, if you’re looking at digital right from the requirement phase
Younus P: until you know the delivery, all all the phases needs to be aware of what accessibility and how accessibility
Younus P: impacts. You know the Roi. So even if you look at from a marketing point of view, I have seen websites and web applications, especially e-commerce.
Younus P: They benefit a lot. If
Younus P: if the website is or the app is accessible, you know. I’ve seen approximately 15 to 20%
Younus P: increase in
Younus P: revenues given, you make your app accessible, you know. So yeah, that is true. Awareness is the first step and it. I don’t know why it is hidden under so many layers, and it is not that, you know, it’s not
Younus P: really that difficult to make applications accessible.
Younus P: So yeah, that that is insightful. And I think from your physical accessibility experience like, while you were a teacher, I think for
Younus P: special kids. Could could you give us a little more on that? How? How did your how did you contribute? And
Younus P: what do you think made
Younus P: not, and only the educational content. But
Younus P: the entire experience of a special needs kid in a school more accessible.
Laura Gould: absolutely. So I think the first step is really knowing who your students are and what their needs are. And that’s gonna be different depending on which which students you end up with. And so
Laura Gould: I would end up with a lot of students who had like learning disabilities, Adhd students who are autistic.
Laura Gould: sometimes students with like neurological disabilities that sort of thing. And so
Laura Gould: what we, what we’d be given is a document called an individualized education program. And so with that, and and also creating that through the year. And so there’s accommodations in there that we have to follow and so making sure that we’re implementing that into our curriculum.
Laura Gould: what I would be doing is creating like specialized instruction for those students, and so
Laura Gould: to make sure that they were able to access it. It might be something as simple as like breaking things down into smaller chunks. Making sure that directions are really really clear.
Laura Gould: for students who are dyslexic like they might have a really hard time reading print. And so something that
Laura Gould: and as aside from just like given giving them like print materials that are at their particular level. If it’s like, okay, we want them to be able to
Laura Gould: to read something that’s more complex or understand something that’s more complex, like making sure that it’s
Laura Gould: able to be read out loud. Either.
Laura Gould: you know, by a by a human reader, and they’re listening to recording or by a screen, reader. And that’s where I think I came
Laura Gould: into a lot of a lot of difficulty. And so, like some of that was like.
Laura Gould: I think we’re meeting remediating that, for that is harder. But like finding things that are already accessible, just like makes that so much easier. And so
Laura Gould: yes, II think a lot of it was like finding accessible curriculum versus like trying to take things that were already inaccessible and making them more accessible. Because that’s
Laura Gould: If you’re if you’re designing things with accessibility in mind that that very much benefits you later on, as opposed to trying to to kind of squeeze that in at the end. Then you’re making a whole lot more work for yourself.
Laura Gould: I’d say.
Laura Gould: for mathematics instruction, making sure that students had access to manipulatives like repeated practice, instructions that were really clear and succinct.
Laura Gould: Access to visuals were a really big one as well as let’s see. And and then I’d say, like what works for, like the students that I’ve worked with would not necessarily work for every single student or every single student with a disability.
Laura Gould: I worked with a student who had a very different set of needs. Who had, like both visual and hearing impairments. She was also very, very young. And so like
Laura Gould: if I gave her a video with captions that wouldn’t work, cause she couldn’t read yet. She was getting there, but she was. She was really little but making sure that things were really engaging with like pictures and sounds, and like things were were really magnified, for her was really important, whereas that was something that like wasn’t as much of a factor for for some of the other students I worked with
Laura Gould: making sure that things
Laura Gould: we had access to things that were like more tactile and so the needs are really gonna depend on who who your users are, or who who my students were. But I think a big thing that you can.
Laura Gould: That you can do is, and this is a really key kind of concept in education as well as design for universal design for learning. And so things that are that are accessible for students with disabilities are often going to be usable for everybody. And so I’d find that
Laura Gould: especially when I was working in more of like a Co teaching context. So working alongside general education teachers, I’d be creating or or kind of modifying things so that it would meet the needs of my students with disabilities. But, like
Laura Gould: other students
Laura Gould: who might not have like, been diagnosed with disability, we’re like, Oh, that makes so much more sense like
Laura Gould: we should just explain it like that all the time. Or when I’d make modifications for my students.
Laura Gould: things like, okay, we’re gonna add, you know, audio recordings, or we’re going to
Laura Gould: be making sure that you know things are things are accompanied by visuals or like things like that, like everybody was using those those
Laura Gould: accommodations a really common one, actually, that I just implemented for everybody because it was helpful. Was this as opposed to
Laura Gould: II would always give students the option of okay. You can write, you know your paragraph or your paper, or whatever by typing it out. But if you want to voice type it like that’s totally fine.
Laura Gould: And that’s something that a lot of students would use. Whether or not that that necessarily
Laura Gould: it, you know they could. They can have a but yeah, just giving, I think, options and and creating different ways of accessing. You know, it could be curriculum. It could be a digital content and giving
Laura Gould: and making sure that things are formatted in such a way that people can customize it to what works for them. I think, is really important. And I think there’s there’s a lot of overlap there between curriculum as well as digital digital experiences, and with digital curriculum oftentimes both.
Dhara Pattani: So Laura, tell us one more thing here, if you have to address those kind of issues.
Dhara Pattani: How do you collaborate with your designers and developers? And at what stage you recommend that this changes should be implemented
Laura Gould: absolutely. I haven’t done as I’ve done.
Laura Gould: sort of accessibility remediation in in a sense, more with collaborating with teachers than I have with designers and developers. But I think the the same principles are probably going to apply. I think it takes people being
Laura Gould: aware of it at the very beginning stages. I think people
Laura Gould: being committed to it and and being on board with it and and being like, yes, this is really important, and we need to to put this at the center and then designing with accessibility in mind, or as a as a key facet of of the process. I think if you’re starting out and you’re like, Okay, I wanna make sure that
Laura Gould: this is going to be accessible for people who I mean, for for everybody, really but
Laura Gould: and and going within those section 500 standards or both. I think, making sure that things are meeting standards from the very beginning, and are usable by a wide range of technology like assistive technologies or or ways of using things is really really important.
Laura Gould: And I found that to be true when collaborating with teachers.
Laura Gould: if they’re on board from the very beginning, then, like creating things, was a lot more streamlined because it’s like, okay. Now, we have a system. We have a way of doing things that’s going to work for everybody. And now that we’re working within that system. Then
Laura Gould: we can create things that that are accessible and
Laura Gould: and and that being fairly easy to use. I found that in in education. It’s much more cumbersome if you’re like, okay, here’s this curriculum that I’ve been using for, you know, 20 years. Here’s all these scanned images of Pdfs, or whatever or like. Here’s the way we’ve always been doing it. Now, like, make it accessible. And it’s like, Okay, this is this is a lot of work. And the end result often ends up being something that
Laura Gould: is not as good as the is. If you had designed with that in mind. From the beginning. I think there’s a lot of in education. There’s a lot of really exciting.
Laura Gould: There’s been. There’s been such a shift
Laura Gould: to digital content in the past.
Laura Gould: I mean, especially from Covid. But I think even even before and I think that opens up a lot of really awesome opportunities to
Laura Gould: to be able to adapt content to such a wide range of needs and to be able to
Laura Gould: for for students to be able to access things. You know, in ways that they haven’t previously even like a lot of the the standardized tests and things like that have moved to being digital. And now it’s like, Oh, everybody can just have it.
Laura Gould: everybody, or if, as if they’ve got the accommodation enabled, can have it like, read out loud to them as they read, like as they go through the test, like that’s awesome. Or they can. You know highlight things. They can change the color contrast. And that’s just and a lot of those are just universal tools that can use
Laura Gould: And I think.
Laura Gould: being like implementing those as just kind of like universal accommodations. Is something that would not have existed. On that scale, probably 10 to 15 years ago. But it’s just like now, more of a normal thing, which is great. So I think if you’re designing with that in mind, you’re gonna come out with a much better result than if you’re trying to
Laura Gould: kind of take something that was originally not very accessible, and then kind of like mold it into being.
Dhara Pattani: Sometimes those suggestions doesn’t need those suggestions don’t need to be really big, but smaller suggestions like color contrast. Button text images can definitely improve the experience.
Dhara Pattani: Do you recollect any instance where your suggestion definitely made an impact in elevating user experience? And in your case, users are students. So that is even more important for them to
Dhara Pattani: make things easier
Laura Gould: for sure. I found so in my in my current role,
Laura Gould: so I can speak to that, and I can speak to education as well. I’ve been in my current role for about a week now, so not not super long,
Laura Gould: but in working through, say, like Pdfs, for example, which I know are are often challenging to make and make accessible, or have kind of their own set of set of rules.
Laura Gould: Some things that I’ve commonly seen are like
Laura Gould: not having any alt text. So like somebody with a screen, reader, that like it’ll just say image image image like it doesn’t actually make any sense or like headings being coded incorrectly, or like or lists, or like
Laura Gould: videos, not having captions and that kinds of things. And so those those often feel like
Laura Gould: on the on the more basic end of things. But like those are things that very much impact usability and like being like, Hey, you need to remediate these. Those are things that are immediately going to have an impact for sure. In terms of in education.
Laura Gould: I definitely found that that implementing accessibility changes had very real impacts on my students. So th things as simple as like, okay, we’re gonna read an article and also have, like.
Laura Gould: like a digital like, read aloud associated with it. And there are some websites that do really good work with this like read works is one that I really like. New zealas, another one where it’s like, Okay, sometimes it’ll be like a speech to text read. Sometimes it’ll be a human depending on depending on the article.
Laura Gould: but just having that that way to like, hear it out loud, while also like reading it
Laura Gould: like visually, like Super, Super, important and like, immediately made it so much more helpful for my students like I often did, human reader kind of stuff as well, but like
Laura Gould: that is not a.
Laura Gould: There’s only so much that I can read things 100 times in a row. If a student needed to hear something a hundred times in a row, then they could just like
Laura Gould: autonomously do that themselves. If if they have access to that. I had students who dyslexic students who got access to a tool called Google, Read and right? Which is
Laura Gould: not necessarily
Laura Gould: quite the same in terms of like a screen reader like Nvda or jaws, or something like that, because it wasn’t students with visual impairments. But students usually dyslexic students.
Laura Gould: Where they could. Yeah, look at look at text, I could have it read out loud to them. They can highlight things. They can look up things in a dictionary like in a visual dictionary to see like, what does this word mean?
Laura Gould: Things like word, prediction software I had some students with access to and like that made it so much easier for them to be able to to write and to share their ideas.
Laura Gould: kinda like I mentioned before, like access to like dictation, dictation software, which is like now just
Laura Gould: implemented into like Google Docs and Microsoft word. And things like that is something that when I first started teaching was very much like a, this is a specialty software that now you that you have to get
Laura Gould: kind of like added on, and is now just like
Laura Gould: in integrated into everything. And I found that it’s it creates so much access for students to be able to to use tools like that.
Laura Gould: And so I think,
Laura Gould: where some of the challenges come in. Education is just like making sure a lot of these tools are out there, but making sure that both students have access to them and know about them and know how to use them is, I think, a really big piece of it.
Laura Gould: So I think a lot of what
Laura Gould: my role as a teacher has been is not necessarily like creating those accessible experiences, but like
Laura Gould: making sure that students have access to them and know how to use them. Because
Laura Gould: it’s it’s out there, and it exists. And it’s often really really good and I think empowering students to to know how to use those tools and to be able to use them consistent consistently and just like normalizing it as opposed to being like. Okay, this is the way education has been done, for you know hundreds of years like you have to do it this way. To make it really normal that, like, you know what like, here’s the assignment. But we’re gonna all
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Laura Gould: be doing it in different ways, like whether that’s your
Laura Gould: your voice, typing it, whether that’s your you’re typing it, whether that’s we had some students who is a little bit easier for us to describe for them. And so, you know, they’d say we type it for them just like giving options and then normalizing like whatever option you choose. That’s great, like
Laura Gould: we’ll get it done in whatever way works for you.
Laura Gould: And I think that that’s that’s both really helpful for students to to kind of eliminate those barriers, but also creates, I say, I think, so much ownership in students to be able to be like, hey, like.
Laura Gould: I know what I need
Laura Gould: to be able to to be able to be successful in school, and I think the more that you normalize that and you normalize being able to use, you know, assistive technology or or just different ways of accessing things.
Laura Gould: the more that you both eliminate those barriers and also open things up to to everybody being like, Okay, like, I don’t necessarily have to do everything in the same exact way.
Dhara Pattani: Yes, and it is very helpful to get a direct feedback from them when especially you have made
Dhara Pattani: some accessibility improvements and want to know whether it is working in the right direction or not.
Laura Gould: Absolutely and students are gonna be the first people to give you feedback. If it’s like this is not working. Then you will. You will know they’ll be like, I can’t read this, or they’ll be like, I don’t get this at all. And so you get kind of that instantaneous feedback when you’re working with students, which is really really great, and you get to kind of pivot and be flexible on the fly and be like, okay, this thing isn’t working. But like, let’s try something something new. I think digital accessibility. The feedback loop might take a little bit longer.
Dhara Pattani: And, Laura, when we are talking about content, and especially when it is educational content. Have you ever seen the situation where it is
Dhara Pattani: in a multiple language, let’s say, and your implements are working on one language, but not on other.
Younus P: Not a lot. I think maybe that would come up more if I was
Laura Gould: I feel like as a foreign language teacher may say that. Oh, quite a bit more of that, because when you’re switching between multiple languages in your content. But not as much. I know. In like the trusted tester program you’d get
Laura Gould: you know. Oh, you have to make sure that the
Laura Gould: the thing that’s not in English is coded in a different way. To make sure your screen reader will read it in in the other language. But that’s something I haven’t seen
Laura Gould: so much yet. That’s something that could be really interesting and really really exciting, and probably
Laura Gould: like complex to to deal with, and something that I’d love to to kind of work with in the future, but not something I’ve seen much of yet.
Younus P: So is the grateful for students with special
Laura Gould: you know, for special education the grading is different. Or is it similar to the
Laura Gould: there the thing about like individualized education programs is that it’s really individual. Ve, the individualized based on the student. So based on the students needs, you might have some students who
Laura Gould: kind of go through the the traditional grading system. They might just need some accommodations. You have what’s called every individualized education program has, goals that students have to meet or or have to make progress on. And so you do, reporting on their progress towards those goals, and so might be tied to that and sometimes it might be a a mix of like traditional grading. And like their their IP goals. Something like that. It really depends.
Younus P: Okay, okay. And how do, how do teachers prepare for it? So it’s I, I’m just see you know, sitting out, it feels all okay. But then, when I hear from you, I really understand the kind of
Younus P: a you know challenge
Younus P: that you might be facing on a day to day basis, you know. So kudos to that, you know. That’s something that is commendable, you know, and and a big.
Younus P: although every teacher who is, you know, going through this and doing it day in, day out. I think that is a big job as being done and making the world a very, very, very good place, you know, for all these beautiful kids who have
Younus P: special abilities and special needs, you know. So yeah, thank you. So much for that.
Younus P: Thank you. Yeah.
Younus P: yeah, with with with the current scenario of things where you are actually testing material. Do you guys automate most of it? Or you have manual procedures in which you do it, or you are still exploring it. How is it like, I’m still exploring processes. I think most of what we’ve been doing recently has been manual testing
Laura Gould: and so going through checklists, for, like the section 508 and and Wcag standards, making sure it meets each one. There are tools that we’ll use, I think the
Laura Gould: the simplest, but also, like most powerful one, I would say, is like using the keyboard and making sure things are keyboard accessible. Cause. I can cover a lot of things. We’ll use automate some automated checkers for like color, contrast and things like that. But it’s still really helpful to also manually test like test text against its backgrounds and things like that, cause, if you like. Just have it scan the whole page. It might not pick up on everything.
Laura Gould: We do use axe, dev tools. I’m still kind of new to that and kind of and making my way through that. And we’ve also we also use Andy for more of the like programmatic stuff.
Laura Gould: so I’d say it’s a mix of both. But I feel like more of where more of where my efforts lie are are within the scope of manual testing. I would say not to say that automated testing is not helpful, because it very much is. And I think I’m still trying to
Laura Gould: to learn some more of those tools to be able to use them more effectively. But I also know that automated testing is not going to catch everything that you’re looking for. And if you rely solely on on automated testing, you’re going to be missing out on a whole, a whole scope of accessibility issues for sure.
Younus P: Absolutely. Yeah, that’s that’s that’s the foundation of it. Because at the end of the day it’s not a machine is gonna use it. It’s a human is gonna use.
Younus P: So the main. So if if machine would have been using it so definitely, automation is the way. But yeah, humans have different ways to perceive. And humans have different eyes to see things. You know. Yeah, see things. Yeah. So yeah, that’s great, and I think it’s a long journey to go ahead. Have you? Have you worked on ui ux as well? Because I think
Laura Gould: not a lot. I know that a lot of people come into accessibility where, like will often come from a from a Ui UX background, because there is very much a lot of overlap.
Laura Gould: I’d say that that’s an area that I could stand to learn more about and and grow in. I don’t have a lot of background in in that but I have had like conversations with friends who work in that. And I’m like, Oh, like, okay, what you’re doing is like just good design, a lot of the time. And so I think that there is, for sure some overlap, but not necessarily things that I have a lot of formal background in.
Younus P: Got it? That’s amazing.
Dhara Pattani: Yes, Laura. And like, you know, I’m assuming that since education content is just not website restricted. You must be performing your testing across different devices also, like mobile apps. Or.
Dhara Pattani: yeah, I would say, in my current role. And again, very new. Most of what I’ve been doing is like Pdfs and webinars and things like that.
Laura Gould: I think, in like more of the the educational like K through 12 curriculum stuff that I’ve worked with previously. That is more.
Laura Gould: II think that I’ve seen that things go through more like accessibility checks than like just regular like teacher created content. And so if you’re getting something from more of like an official app or website, like, oftentimes it’s kind of gone through that process. But if you’ve got
Laura Gould: just like teachers sharing curricula more like something that’s been
Laura Gould: kind of like part of a school for a really long time, or something like that. You don’t necessarily have the same kind of accessibility. Checks going on which makes sense because it’s not something that I think a lot of people, especially in education, but
Laura Gould: kind of across the board we’ll know about if if what you have is somebody who’s like, I’m really good at creating reading curriculum like that’s awesome. But that
Laura Gould: unless you know about it, or have a reason to be testing for it like, you’re not necessarily gonna know about accessibility. And so I think
Laura Gould: because curriculum is so kind of individualized like across, you know, across schools or across classes or teachers, or that kind of thing. You get
Laura Gould: kind of these inconsistencies where some things might be really accessible. And you get things other things that are very much not I know. Like in in college and grad school. You get all of these like
Laura Gould: like scholarly articles, things you need to read, and it’s like cool. Here’s this image of a Pdf. That’s like
Laura Gould: 50 pages long, or something like that. And something like that is super super inaccessible, because it’s like this is an image, and it does not text. And even if you like, try to convert it to text. It’s just it does not
Laura Gould: make any sense.
Laura Gould: And so I think there, there are places where accessibility is very much being implemented. And you have places where it’s, it’s very much not. And so it’s it’s really inconsistent.
Dhara Pattani: How do you see? Updated on current standards and guidelines?
Laura Gould: Yeah, I Tech University has a lot of really good webinars and so I’ll go to those and they’re II know they’re they’re really often pioneering and staying very much on top of
Laura Gould: advances in the accessibility field. So I’ll go to those. I know you’re getting some they’re not implemented yet, but we’ll be getting some new wik standards like
Laura Gould: 2.2 that’ll be coming out
Laura Gould: and so I’ve been kind of keeping on top of articles top talking about that.
Laura Gould: I’ll also, especially because I’m new to Field. I feel like staying on top of things, is also just like learning is also very much a part of that and and kind of getting more into the field. So I would say.
Laura Gould: like going to webinars, taking like online classes, things like that. Webin has a lot of really good resources. So there’s classes through there that I’ve that I’ve worked on. I’d say, just like working my way through
Laura Gould: like various webinars. And there’s also a lot of really good content creators, I’d I’d say, especially on Linkedin. I see a lot of them. That are very much on top of like the newest enhancements like how things are kind of shifting people who’ve been in the accessibility field for a long time to have that that kind of scope of knowledge from like where is it been to? Where is it evolving?
Laura Gould: And so II find, from from following and and reading and interacting with people who are a lot more knowledgeable than myself. They have a lot of really good resources and a lot of really good expertise as well.
Younus P: Just curious to know. Do you see the difference between the browser, like different experiences as well.
Laura Gould: Sorry. But in the in browsers, yeah. Different browsers. Oh, gosh, most of the time I’m using Google Chrome, I would say 99% of the time. And so that would be the one that I’m certainly the most familiar with.
Laura Gould: I have not.
Laura Gould: I feel like that’s the one that I that I spend the most time in I have a a windows laptop, and so sometimes I’ll accidentally end up in Microsoft Edge, or something like that. And every time I’m like this feels disorienting. I know that.
Laura Gould: I imagine, or I know, that across browsers like there has, there have been a lot of
Laura Gould: kind of moves been made towards accessibility in the past, like even 5 to 10 years like it’s been. There are things that are a lot more accessible than
Laura Gould: than they used to be. I can’t say I’m I’m super well versed on on differences between browsers per se. But I will say that like when I, when I often find myself in
Laura Gould: in a digital scenario, that I’m not often in
Laura Gould: that I’m I’m often kind of like impressed and like, Oh, like this was not
Laura Gould: like this like 5 years ago, like, I recently got a new like Macbook computer as well, and like it immediately starts up, and, like the first thing it goes to in your setup is like, set all your accessibility features, and, like I had previous one, and like 2012 or something like that. And so I haven’t like been using a mac for a while.
Laura Gould: But I was like, Oh, I definitely do not remember that being part of part of the process there. But now it’s just like this is the first thing when you’re setting up your computer, which is really cool.
Younus P: Yeah, Apple App really does a good job at
Younus P: making things accessible. Yeah, II can vouch for that. Yep.
Dhara Pattani: Laura, let’s say, if any organization who is pretty
Dhara Pattani: new in this area and trying to incorporate inclusive ability and trying to elevate their digital experience and trying to build a roadmap with the team.
Dhara Pattani: What would be your suggestion? How and when and where they can start?
Laura Gould: That’s a really good question. I’m I bet I’ve not been on something from the more of an architectural standpoint. But I would say, making sure that accessibility is at the forefront of everything you’re doing
Laura Gould: is really important. And I think you’ll find that like if you’re focusing on accessibility, not just like from a compliance standpoint, but just a how can everyone use this kind of standpoint that you’re going to be?
Laura Gould: It’s often going to be a better design. That’s going to benefit more people. And then
Laura Gould: generally especially if you’re if you’re dealing with like e-commerce, or or like apps or something like that, it’s going to have like positive business impacts as well.
Laura Gould: so I’d say, first of all, just making sure everybody’s like aware of what accessibility is and
Laura Gould: the impact of it. Why, it’s important. And like, truly invested in it. Not just like, okay. Now, we need to check a box. I think that that’s really important. I would say, designing with that
Laura Gould: in mind, and you might be creating like a little bit more of a deliberate roadmap for yourself in the beginning, but I think probably saving yourself a whole lot of time and hassle
Laura Gould: later on.
Laura Gould: I think, having people who are experienced and knowledgeable in the in the digital accessibility field. As part of your
Laura Gould: as part of your planning, and and not just in the planning, but in in implementation and and testing and kind of throughout the whole life cycle of the product, I think, is really important. And I’d say, not just people who are ex the experience in digital accessibility, but also like users with disabilities. And so if you are like
Laura Gould: A and making that testing part a really regular and and consistent part of the process. And so you can be like, Okay, yep. I coded this, for
Laura Gould: you know, screen readers or keyboard users, whatever. This is all you know. This is all great. We’re compliant now. And then you get people who actually navigate the web or or apps in those ways who use it, and they’re like, no, this is not accessible. Then, like something has definitely gone wrong. And so I’d say, making sure you’ve got users who
Laura Gould: who use things in a wide variety of ways, as as both in the planning stages as well as in in the testing and implementation stages and kind of throughout the entire
Laura Gould: throughout the entire process. I think that’s that’s really helpful. I think the more feedback you can get, the better
Laura Gould: and the more and the more you’re open to soliciting that feedback and implementing that feedback, the better product you’re gonna have.
Dhara Pattani: And then checking time to time whether it is working in the right direction or not.
Laura Gould: For sure, as like, especially as like updates roll out or like
Laura Gould: things are are, you know, changing or adapting. You want to make sure that they’re continuing to be
Laura Gould: to be accessible and and to be used by by a wide range of people
Younus P: absolutely.
Laura Gould: Wow! That sounded like an architect. I am not not formally one. I’d say that there’s there’s probably some overlaps between unit planning and teaching and architecting an entire
Laura Gould: you know, app or system, or something like that. The the details of which are things that I don’t have formal experience in. But
Younus P: if you generally think of your users
Younus P: who’s gonna consume your apps, consume your website.
Younus P: that’s the first step, you know. And I think you were bang on. Thank you so much for that. And I think, Laura, in a very short time you have gate a fantastic knowledge. And it’s amazing. And thanks for sharing that with us today.
Laura Gould: Awesome. Thank you so much.
Amit Bhanushali: Here.
Younus P: Sure. I would say. What are some of the Major? I guess. Advancements that you’ve seen in the accessibility field. And let’s say the past like 5 years. What would you say? Have been some of the major shifts you’ve seen.
Younus P: See? The biggest shift that I’ve seen is
Younus P: the mindset of people
Younus P: who now, you know. So the the ux designers that I’m meeting are talking accessibility. Not all of them.
Younus P: but many of them, you know, as compared to 5 years ago, where
Younus P: it it was driven by, you know a compliance, need, or even driven by the Government pushing the products of the web, you know. So yesterday I spoke to a doctor. You won’t believe it. So she came to me and she said, Hey, Unus, I won’t get my
Younus P: website accessible. I’m like, Wow, this is super, you know. Why would you say that, you know. So she came in from
Younus P: her own experience of using her own website because she had a visible visual disability, you know. And then she said, this is too difficult for me. And like, yeah, we need to get this thing done. So that is one that there is realization that these things can be done. So
Younus P: the inclusion of people with disabilities is now becoming an awareness. So the awareness is in people know that this is possible. So that that makes
Younus P: that makes things more
Younus P: easier, you know, because nobody will say, no, that will give me not make our website accessible, you know. That’s that’s but then the awareness is the first step to that. The awareness in increasing the last 5 years. Second is, there’s a lot, lo, lot lot of tools that are coming, good tools as well, which, you know, are off the shelf, and they they make your experience a little better. Maybe you know, voice-overs are coming in better.
Younus P: better accents, you know, for that matter, even in the voice over, you can choose.
Younus P: you know. So that way it makes more accessible. You know, small things like that
Younus P: moving ahead, moving out of the Us. And moving
Younus P: you know, in in European
Younus P: as the Asian countries, so the penetration of accessibility is less. But then the awareness has also come in over there. So that’s what I’m seeing, you know, while I work with clients globally from Australia, from Asia. So II think that yeah, these are the few major changes that have come in browsers. And just like how we discuss about apple, you know, making products more and more accessible each passing day.
Younus P: So companies have. So
Younus P: apple is like, you know everyone will just
Younus P: blindly copy what they do. So if Apple is in the right direction, you know, people will definitely follow. So that is a good thing and apple has been at the forefront of accessibility. So yeah, definitely. And
Younus P: laws are getting stricter, you know. Where?
Younus P: the government is pushing. And there are 2 things about the laws. One is
Younus P: that the government is giving you budget, you know, and tax rebates on accessibility, which is a great thing which I don’t think was there earlier. And now, you know, strict laws means, you know, getting things done faster, you know. So companies are implementing this. So I I’m happy about the implementation rate. I’m happy about the tools that are coming in. And I’m happy about the acceptance by teams, you know. So back in the day II had never seen in a roadmap for a product
Younus P: anywhere I mentioned of accessibility. Now we see it in each sprint. Now we see it in each each new interface. So that’s that’s that’s progress. I think. Yeah, getting more and more open about it.
Younus P: Yeah.
Dhara Pattani: people talk about it. And I think so, that makes a difference. And when especially it comes from the upper management.
Dhara Pattani: it’s easier to follow by everyone
Amit Bhanushali: in the organization and things are happening. Yeah, in a positive direction. I, yeah. And II second that because I’m in 22 years in Qa and quality assurance. And
Amit Bhanushali: II didn’t had any time doing this kind of test but year before and recently I I’m coming across those things.
Amit Bhanushali: and I’m glad that to meet Dara and Eunice and getting to know a lot more on it.
Amit Bhanushali: And today I’d like to get to know more from Laura you. So thank you so much. Yeah.
Laura Gould: yes, thank you. And I very much have a lot to learn from from all of you as well. I feel like, I’m very new to
Laura Gould: to digital accessibility. Not so need to to like universal design for learning, but like, just in terms of how to
Laura Gould: how to implement this. In the technological space, there are so many. so many avenues. And and
Laura Gould: there’s just so much possibility. And so I think it’s something that’s really cool and really exciting
Dhara Pattani: lot of you would really appreciate if you just keep shedding any blogs which are
Younus P: yeah, you did that. Thank you so much for that. And if you have anything.
Dhara Pattani: something that you feel we can definitely publish it on our blog. And maybe we can learn from it. Yeah, and any export that you follow. And we can also gain some knowledge from there.
Dhara Pattani: Any Linkedin page or
Laura Gould: perfect
Laura Gould: ideas where we can reach out to groups or people
Younus P: and maybe share some knowledge about this, feel free. And we can set up a webinar, or we can set up something where you know, we can educate people and advocate about accessibility, digital or physical
Laura Gould: perfect. Thank you so much. Yeah. Happy to share things. I’m trying to post on Linkedin a little bit more would definitely not call myself an expert, but very much. Somebody who is excited to learn and grow and
Laura Gould: and make the world hopefully, but a more accessible place for people.
Dhara Pattani: Laura, you definitely have stories to tell, and especially in the field of education, people would love to know more and more about it.
Younus P: Yeah.
Younus P: so so would you be open to an idea, Laura? To, you know.
Younus P: so because you are in education, would you be open to an idea of doing a small webinar? Very good, you know.
Laura Gould: Make a presentation of sorts. And yeah, that’s something that yeah, would. That’d be something that you would be able open to take your time, maybe a week, about who I’m who I’m directing it as, or directing it to like cause. The the issues are not necessarily with like individual teachers or even individual schools. It’s so much like a systemic thing. So I’d have to think about how I want to frame it. But that’s something I’d be open to. Yeah.
Younus P: lovely. So maybe we’ll get back to you or email, ask you and trouble you for your time, and then you can tell us whenever it is whenever you’re available, and then we can do a quick, webinar, and no
Younus P: topic, you know. Maybe we can do one in the next month. That’s September. So pick up a topic of your choice which you’re comfortable with, and maybe,
Younus P: you know, show show techniques or show some tricks which can help people think in the right direction, you know.
Younus P: Great, yeah, it’d be I’d definitely be open to that. Thank you. Alright cool.
Younus P: that’s that’s all from our end. Thank you so much once again. Thank you so much for for your time today. It was really great to to get
Laura Gould: awesome. Thank you. See, you guys later.
Younus P: Thank you
Amit Bhanushali: and thank you for my having me.
Younus P: hey? I’m at. Wait with you. Wait! I’ll stop recording.
Amit Bhanushali: You want me to stop.
Summary
Laura, an accessibility specialist, was then invited by Younus and Dhara to discuss accessibility testing in their podcast. Laura shared her journey into the field of digital accessibility and emphasized the importance of making digital content accessible. She highlighted different ways people can contribute to accessibility and the need for awareness and education to improve digital accessibility. They also discussed the importance of accessibility tools for students, particularly those with dyslexia. Laura emphasized the need for a mix of manual and automated testing methods to ensure website accessibility.
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